Curse

Martin Alvito · Sep 10, 2009, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

prove that "there's nothing to do in this game after the storyline but farm".

What else is there to do?

1) PvP. This doesn't work for a lot of people. Don't understand it myself, but it's definitely true.
2) Farm.
3) Title grind.

Looks comprehensive to me. The assertion that a lot of people do #2 is unarguably correct. Some people hate #1 and #3. Some people hate #1 and are done with #3.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

oh btw, i just dropped by temple of the ages. as of 9:45PM EST, there's less than a dozen advertisements for UWSC. for a peak time, this is pretty insignificant amount of players we're dealing with here. so no, there aren't "a very LARGE" number of players using it.

Compared to what? This proves nothing. If 50 people are in district throughout the game, and 49 of them are in ToA, we would properly state that a large number of players are doing UWSC. If there used to be 200 people in ToA regularly, that is not germane to whether a "large" number of players are doing UWSC now.

Here, I'll provide a simple logical argument as to why UWSC (and other imba farms) should be nerfed:

1) There will always be a "most efficient" farm.
2) Money-motivated players will always flock to the "most efficient" farm initially.
3) Doing the same thing over and over eventually gets boring.
4) Players do not get bored at the same time.
5) It is therefore very difficult for individual players to move the focal teamplay farm from one location to another.

It follows that changing up the "most efficient" farm regularly is healthy for the game. Failure to do so leads to unnecessary exodus.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Play the game how you like to play. Why concern yourself with other people?

The farming behavior of you and others like you creates a large negative externality. If I have 1000 ectos, and farming drives the price of ectos down 1k each, then I just lost a full storage box worth of platinum. Your farming affects others and makes them worse off. So they want your farm gone. Simple.

The other negative externality is the effect on the player base at the margin. No, you and others like you won't balanceway UW. But not all UWSC players are as money-motivated as you. You can't infer what the entire UWSC player base will do post-nerf from what you would do. Attempting to generalize from an instance is fail logic, and you're implicitly doing that in your reasoning without realizing it.

moriz · Sep 10, 2009, 04:42 AM // 04:42

i listed the reasons why i still play this game in a prior post. but hey, you can still try to dodge with your utter ignorance. seriously, you accuse others of being selfish, when you still cannot see past the fact that there's more to this game than storyline and farming.

but hey, be bitter and sit in your little world. you can yell, you can scream, but if anet decides SF and UWSC will die, then they will die. UWSC is a very TINY part of GW. it is very popular in a very small circle of players. outside of that, people don't give a rat's ass about it. instead of trying to argue why it should stay, you should start planning how you're gonna play this game after it's gone. 'cause believe me, if anet wants it gone, it will be. what will you do then? count your useless stacks of gold and ectos? quit?

and martin: you've forgotten 4) play for fun. but thanks for proving my point, you've come up with three ways to play the game, while traversc claims there's only two.

Martin Alvito · Sep 10, 2009, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

UWSC is a very TINY part of GW. it is very popular in a very small circle of players.

Assertion without proof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

outside of that, people don't give a rat's ass about it.

I just listed two good reasons why people care.
1) inflation externality
2) immovable (and eventually undesirable) focal point for players

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

count your useless stacks of gold and ectos?

4) play for fun.

You and your prejudices. Some people are a lot more goal-oriented than you are, and you just can't seem to accept it. You stated that you leave after every match in RA regardless of team quality. This makes you a HUGE outlier on the preference spectrum. Surely you realize this. If the popularity of the title system doesn't prove it to you, I don't know what would.

moriz · Sep 10, 2009, 05:08 AM // 05:08

i'll pursue a goal if there's actual tangible rewards in doing so. titles and money in GW do not offer tangible rewards. they won't ever give me a stronger character (outside of pve skills, but those are usually very powerful even without a high corresponding title), and i generally do not enjoy grinding on a treadmill to nowhere. if i happen to gain a title, it's not because i played specifically to get that title. that title happened on its own as i play the way i like to play.

am i wrong for playing this way? no. are you wrong for playing the way you do? no. however, anet IS looking into nerfing SF, and NOT looking into nerfing my playstyle. we can argue around in circles all we want ('cause you know that's how it's gonna go), but it still won't change a damned thing. SF, unless anet decides to change its mind, is gonna go. be prepared for it.

Martin Alvito · Sep 10, 2009, 05:28 AM // 05:28

I've been yelling for SF to go die in a fire as vociferously as anyone. We just have very different reasons for our feelings on the issue.

The cycle used to be: you'd find a broken farm, abuse it, and not tell anyone. Eventually someone else would find your farm, be an idiot, and tell everyone about it. Then ANet would nerf it and you'd go find another farm.

That didn't happen this time. We found UWSC, Fooster was an idiot and screamed it out to the world as payback for getting booted from the group for drama, and ANet let it go on for over a year.

I think the results speak for themselves. Broken stuff that is commonly known in a massively multiplayer game must be nerfed. Otherwise, you might as well just let people dupe. That has the same long-run effects but is more efficient for everyone, since people don't have to spend time farming.

Jeydra · Sep 10, 2009, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Um, no?

Play the game how you like to play. Why concern yourself with other people? Apparently, you think that there are lots of other people that think the way you do. Why don't you guys get together and balance-way UW? What exactly is stopping you?

Is it the fact that the existence of SF makes it inefficient? I thought you said you do things for "fun" and not for "farm"? Come on, make up your mind.

I thought you'd already seen this argument before, because I used it in that other thread to sway upier's mind. But since you haven't, let me spell it out for you again.

You cannot ignore the fact that Shadow Form exists. Because it exists, some things are way way way faster than others, and that means most people will simply use Shadow Form as a shortcut instead of doing things balance-way, as you put it.

The best example is VSF. Say it's a Thommis-ZQ day. Do you think you'll have difficulties getting a PuG as a Warrior? What if it's a Borguus Blisterbark-ZQ day? Why the big difference in ease of getting a team?

Can you say that even though VSF exists, you can easily PuG a full team and go do Thommis HM balance-way?
How can you say "play the game how you like to play" when Shadow Form is clearly draining the player pool who normally do the ZQs everyday?

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Except the post I was replying to was specifically about UW.

Next.

If your entire argument revolves around the UW, acknowledging that Shadow Form is balanced in the UW proper but overpowered everywhere else, then you'll just have given a great argument to nerf Shadow Form.

If that is not your argument, then provide reasons why Shadow Form should exist outside of the UW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

What else is there to do?

1) PvP. This doesn't work for a lot of people. Don't understand it myself, but it's definitely true.
2) Farm.
3) Title grind.

Looks comprehensive to me. The assertion that a lot of people do #2 is unarguably correct. Some people hate #1 and #3. Some people hate #1 and are done with #3.

Classify me then.

I PvP, but not very often; recently for example all I've been doing in GW is doing the Zaishen Quests.
I don't really farm. Maybe every now and then when I've got a few spare minutes but not enough to do something significant, then I might go do a Raptor run.
I don't title grind. I've long stopped working on my KoaBD title track, which has been stuck at 15 for maybe two years.

So tell me, why do I play Guild Wars?

This argument is so obvious that I really wonder why traversc wound up arguing that all that's left for people playing GW is to farm.

Shadowhaze · Sep 10, 2009, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

As long as they admit in the developer updates for the change that they were completely retarded for ever introducing a skill like this, then I'll be happy. Otherwise, the damage is already done, who cares, dead game, insert snappy retort here, etc. etc.

Hehe.

They've nerfed so many other things, I'm surprised this hasn't gotten the axe before now actually.

Well it's about time they finally LOOK into it. When/if they finally DO something about it, then I'll laugh at the QQ to ensue.

harpharp · Sep 10, 2009, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

People play for tuns because there is no one else to form parties in those mission outposts.

Why? Because they don't have to form parties, because there is always a runner doing it faster.

this only applies for some people. There are many who hates paying for runs and the trolls will be out to qq. Heck even getting people to pay 1k is hard for some. I shld know cos i am a runner and when i ask the people i ran, they told me the same thing: wipe on bosses 15 times, stuck on boss for 2 months. Its hard to find a full party yes, but its always easy to get 2/3 people if u try then add heroes to your party. Just got to be pro-active, advertise hard in lfg and on local chat. I never had a prob finding groups this way.

just because sf is op cos slavers can be done in 1 hr doesnt change the fact 600 is op as well. no hm dungeons is designed for only 3 people to run: qz, smiter, 600. This is a broken mechanic, and as for speed clearing, a 600 can clear say, city of torc'qua faster then a perma due to the fact that sliver only works on multiple mobs aggroing u. So 600 is broken as well and shld be fixed.

Axeman002 · Sep 10, 2009, 01:21 PM // 13:21

if i worked at Anet and read this i would buff SF to do double damage and nerf 600 and watch all the QQ people burst lmao

FoxBat · Sep 10, 2009, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

recently for example all I've been doing in GW is doing the Zaishen Quests.

If you want we can add a 4th category: Zcoin farming. The method is different, as you need to run around chasing a variety of objectives instead of grinding the same build/area day in and out, but the motivation (grind for shinies) is similar.

Jetdoc · Sep 10, 2009, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

What else is there to do?

1) PvP.
2) Farm.
3) Title grind.

Looks comprehensive to me.

I think you've only scratched the surface as to what Guild Wars offers. But then again, a lot of people share this view...which is very disappointing, IMO.

Martin Alvito · Sep 10, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Please enlighten me. Your blanket statement that "there are other things to do" is unconvincing. What are these other things to do, and why should I do them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I PvP, but not very often; recently for example all I've been doing in GW is doing the Zaishen Quests.
I don't really farm. Maybe every now and then when I've got a few spare minutes but not enough to do something significant, then I might go do a Raptor run.
I don't title grind. I've long stopped working on my KoaBD title track, which has been stuck at 15 for maybe two years.

So tell me, why do I play Guild Wars?

If you could explain it, wouldn't you? Why are you asking me?

My point was simple: the three activities I listed are the only endgame activities that are ends in and of themselves. Anything else PvE is aimless drift that uses time inefficiently. You may not see it this way, but you should recognize that there's a significant chunk of the player base that does.

Naturally, this group of players gets upset when they are told by the developer that they will have to invest additional time to achieve the same goals. But nerfs are a necessary evil; as noted, if you aren't going to bother nerfing OP stuff you might as well just let people dupe and be done with it. More efficient for everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

If you want we can add a 4th category: Zcoin farming.

Zaishen coin farming is strictly dominated by farming more efficiently and purchasing desired products from other players. The rewards aren't large enough to make farming the Zaishen quests worth the time investment unless you were going to do the task anyway. The PvP side is similar; if you enjoy HA, you should definitely play on the HA quest day because activity (and fame) increase. But you were going to play it anyway, just not necessarily right then.

The Zaishen quests are a clever organizing principle for a multiplayer game with diffuse options for what you could be doing at any given time. But that's all they are.

SirSporks · Sep 10, 2009, 02:37 PM // 14:37

i don't see a problem with SF being used in a tank n' spank fashion. Every other class pretty much has something to do this with. (obby flesh, defy pain, 600, 55, yadda yadda yadda...) the difference with all these other builds is that they have very little or no damage output unless there is another person in the group.

this is the problem with shadowform. You are alone. In a team based game this is unacceptable to me.

I say just make it so you can't do damage with SF up. Solves all your issues, you still have a good pretty survivable tank, but now you are in league with the rest of the tanks.

Different area's will require different tank set ups as well. some will need a bonder, some will need regen, some will need this... that... don't care, just make it so you can't solofarmthegame with 1 build but then make it so every other class in the game can't.

It's either nerf the damage output, or buff every other class so people can have fun with whatever character.

not like it matters.. this game is dead to me... *helloooooo aion*

QueenofDeath · Sep 10, 2009, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Sweet SF is going to get nerfed into Oblivion and then the QQing and crying and gnawing and gnashing of teeth and threatening to quits and all that good stuff will begin. I can hardly wait.

Jetdoc · Sep 10, 2009, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

What are these other things to do, and why should I do them?

The answer to question two is very easy - for the challenge. To play the game. Unless you (like many other players) believe that the only reason you should ever do something in the game is if you receive a tangible reward...which kind of puts the "handcuffs" on your playing experience, IMO.

Answers to question one:

1. Have you ever tried to complete a mission solo without heroes or henchmen? For starters, try doing the Dragon's Lair in this way...it will scratch the surface on a whole other way to play the game for you.

2. Have you ever created a character, not accessed storage once or traded with another player, to see how you would fare? This will give you the feeling of the game when you first started playing it...it's a very refreshing experience.

3. Have you ever tried to come up with an original build using rarely used skills, and actually succeed with that build? Talk about satisfaction to know that you're not just using a build that you read about on the internet...you've created something.

Those are just examples on how I've made the game still fun to this day (after 4+ years of playing) long after the "end of the storyline" was reached. If you feel that PvP, farming and title grinding are all that's left to do in the game, then I believe you've severely handcuffed yourself.

Martin Alvito · Sep 10, 2009, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSporks

I say just make it so you can't do damage with SF up. Solves all your issues, you still have a good pretty survivable tank, but now you are in league with the rest of the tanks.

I agree, but recognize that it would still be possible to stack a target to -10 and kill it through degen. You'd have to rework SF such that you can't cast anything on enemies and can't deal damage, AND you'd have to rework skills like Burning Speed. (eg: you are set on fire for X seconds, you run faster for Y seconds, and everything nearby takes Z damage when Burning Speed ends.)

The path of least resistance for the programmers is clearly to make SF impossible to maintain. I think that solution is much more likely, despite the fact that it is inferior.

madriel222 · Sep 10, 2009, 03:30 PM // 15:30

I posted this in another thread, but I think that it needs repeating...

"You just have to come to terms that GW is a game of limited content. Though you can't "beat the game" so to speak, there exists a point where all your goals have been achieved. That could be wealth, titles, whatever, but that point does come. When that realization hits, players have a choice to make: 1) make new goals, 2) quit the game, or 3) appreciate the game for the social network it has allowed you to build. I myself am in the third camp. I've gotten my titles, my shiny objects, so I've moved on to helping people, to having fun with my friends. If you're always playing by yourself, or not building relationships with your groups/guilds, this game is going to get boring very quickly after you've achieved your personal goals. The game isn't fun for me because of the content, it's fun because of the people who play it."

If you're looking for a way to use your time efficiently, don't play a game. To get continued use out of GW you need to make goals that are bigger than yourself, your personal ambitions. Make your guildies better, make your pugs better, help them achieve their goals. Wanting certain items to look great is fine, but coming back to GW for the sake of just farming defeats the purpose of a game. You're here to waste time. You're here to have fun. Don't take it so seriously. Martin's list of "things you can do" is completely out of whack, a self centered approach that treats individuals as isolated entities.

As for SF, about time Anet.

Martin Alvito · Sep 10, 2009, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Those are just examples on how I've made the game still fun to this day (after 4+ years of playing) long after the "end of the storyline" was reached. If you feel that PvP, farming and title grinding are all that's left to do in the game, then I believe you've severely handcuffed yourself.

Your language is ironic, because you are arguing that I should handcuff myself to increase the difficulty level of the game and alter the play experience. I never enjoyed that in other games, and so I'm not going to do it in GW.

It's not that I don't like problem solving. It's that I prefer to derive a future benefit from the application of those skills. If I find a better farm, find a better team build, or find a better tactic, the time that I invested finding it gets returned to me because whatever goal I set is accomplished sooner.

What you propose is not for everyone. The vast majority of any gaming community never engages in that sort of behavior; only a small niche community ever springs up around such activity.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by madriel222

If you're looking for a way to use your time efficiently, don't play a game. To get continued use out of GW you need to make goals that are bigger than yourself, your personal ambitions. Make your guildies better, make your pugs better, help them achieve their goals. Wanting certain items to look great is fine, but coming back to GW for the sake of just farming defeats the purpose of a game. You're here to waste time. You're here to have fun. Don't take it so seriously. Martin's list of "things you can do" is completely out of whack, a self centered approach that treats individuals as isolated entities.

Time wasted enjoying yourself is not time wasted. It's the efficient use of time.

Our preferences differ. It makes sense to invest time in others if and only if doing so provides future returns - true for both of us. We define future returns differently. You want camaraderie. I want to accomplish goals.

I accept that not all players are like me. I just choose not to spend time around the players that don't share my objectives. I don't criticize you for playing the way you do (unless you whine about not having things you want, in which case I have no sympathy). But you criticize me for being different. I'm not going to tell you that your priorities are "out of whack". I think you're nuts for trying to have fun by helping bad players, but that's just my opinion.

The point I'm making is that there is a substantial share of the player base that shares my point of view, and that they have a viewpoint that's valid from that point of view. The players that are complaining are missing the bigger picture that ridiculously OP stuff destroys the integrity of the system that they enjoy playing in, and only seeing the immediate impact on self. That's the real issue here.

Lyn_Darksight · Sep 10, 2009, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyn_Darksight

The richest guys I know in-game did not get that way on a 'permasin', they run dungeons with a 600 Monk using a smiter hero

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

5) Richest players in the game got so via power trading. Farming is for chumps.

Consider yourself refuted Lyn.

[sarcasm]Great! I don't powertrade, let's nerf that by making ectos untradeable![/sarcasm]

Seriously, powertrading is more of a reason for inflation than any farm has ever been. Your ectos will not go up in price, because no one sells ectos to the trader! During the time I've been playing, ecto prices dropped from 8k to 5k before there was a pug-friendly UWSC (37.5%), and from 5k to 4.3k after (14%).

The nerf is going to happen, I agree.

If the aim is to provide ANet with some relief from QQ's and eliminate the current UWSC, then hopefully the end result will be something like this:

Elite Enchantment Spell For 5...18...21 seconds, all hostile spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but 5...41...50 Health.This skill ends prematurely when you hit with an attack or deal damage.

This way, SF tanking will remain intact for other areas, and the boring as hell UWSC will be eliminated.

No, you cannot join my balanced group just because there is no speed clear. You are still a PuG.

this post is now open for flaming

MagmaRed · Sep 10, 2009, 04:41 PM // 16:41

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Shadow Form does not have a problem. Not one. Perma does. Remove Perma from the equation and things will be fine. I remember when Shadow Form didn't have access to consumables, Glyph of Swiftness, or Deadly Paradox. It was still used to farm, it was just slower. Not sure HOW to do it, but removing the ability to keep SF up all the time will make me happy, and should remove all the complaints from the people who want it nerfed.